Headlines AirAsia Indonesia flight QZ8501 to Singapore missing

[Human]

AGAIN!? In this day and age? It's becoming just to
frequent.

An AirAsia Indonesia airliner flying from Indonesia to Singapore with 162 people on board has gone missing.

Flight QZ8501 lost contact with air traffic control at 06:24 local time (23:24 GMT Saturday) over the Java Sea.

The plane, an Airbus A320-200, disappeared midway into the flight of more than two hours from the city of Surabaya. No distress call was made.

Bad weather was reported in the area, and an air search operation has now been suspended for the night.

Planes from Indonesia and Singapore had been scouring an area of sea between Kalimantan (Borneo) and Java. Some boats were reported to be continuing to search as night fell.

No wreckage has been found, an Indonesian official told the BBC.

AirAsia's Chief Executive Tony Fernandes, who has flown to Surabaya, said: "We don't want to speculate but right now of course the plane has been missing for 12 hours and there's a deep sense of depression here."

The flight left Surabaya in eastern Java at 05:35 local time (22:35 GMT) and was due to arrive in Singapore at 08:30 (00:30 GMT).

The missing jet had requested a "deviation" from the flight path to avoid thick storm clouds, AirAsia said.

Indonesia's transport ministry said the pilot had asked permission to climb to 38,000 ft (11,000m).

AirAsia, a budget airline which owns 49% of AirAsia Indonesia, is based in Malaysia and has never lost a plane.

However, 2014 has been a difficult year for aviation in Asia: Malaysia's national carrier Malaysia Airlines has suffered two losses - flights MH370 and MH17.

Flight MH370 disappeared on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing in March with 239 passengers and crew. The wreckage, thought to be in southern Indian Ocean, has still not been located. MH17 was shot down over Ukraine in July, killing all 298 on board.

There were 155 passengers on board, the company said in a statement:

• 138 adults, 16 children and one infant
• Most on board were Indonesian
• Several were from other countries: one UK national, a Malaysian, a Singaporean and three South Koreans
• Two pilots and five crew were also on board - one French, the others Indonesian

AirAsia has set up an emergency line for family or friends of those who may be on board. The number is +622 129 850 801.

Dozens of passengers' relatives have been gathering at Juanda airport in Surabaya and Singapore's Changi airport to hear news.

Changi airport authorities have set up a holding area for relatives. It said 47 had arrived and care officers and counsellors were on hand to provide support.

AirAsia Indonesia operates domestic flights round the Indonesian archipelago as well as international services to Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and Thailand.

AirAsia Indonesia, along with other Indonesian airlines, was banned from flying to the European Union in 2007 due to safety concerns but this was lifted in July 2010.

 

[tristatez28lt1]

Yea it's unbelievable. They need to go to a constant location monitoring service. 2014 is a terrible year for the airline industry.

 

[klier]

Yea it's unbelievable. They need to go to a constant location monitoring service. 2014 is a terrible year for the airline industry.

Yeah, it's unbelievable these airlines still rely on some ancient tech, tracking wise. The airline should have a real time internet connection with it's plane at all times, giving all available data from the flight. Including stuff like engine performance. Every second during the whole flight on every airplane in the sky.

 

[Human]

Yeah, it's unbelievable these airlines still rely on some ancient tech, tracking wise. The airline should have a real time internet connection with it's plane at all times, giving all available data from the flight. Including stuff like engine performance. Every second during the whole flight on every airplane in the sky.

After 2014 I really hope there comes a major overhaul in the international airline industry made mandatory by the International Aviation Authority. It is after-all the year 2015 in a few days and we live in a century (I mean just look at the Automotive Industry) where technology can't be used as an excuse whatsoever. @Betty Swollocks (our member in the Aviation Industry) your take on this Betty?

 

[Betty Swollocks]

After 2014 I really hope there comes a major overhaul in the international airline industry made mandatory by the International Aviation Authority. It is after-all the year 2015 in a few days and we live in a century (I mean just look at the Automotive Industry) where technology can't be used as an excuse whatsoever. @Betty Swollocks (our member in the Aviation Industry) your take on this Betty?

Well Naas, as it happens I'm currently sat on a Boeing 777-300ER, three hours into a nine hour flight from London to Miami, typing away on my laptop with a perfectly good internet connection. I'm in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. So with regards to real-time data on the aircraft being transferred to a ground station; it's certainly possible, and indeed does happen in a more primitive way with some airlines. That system is called ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System). It's more like an SMS messaging service transmitting real-time data about the aircraft back to base. But it's use as a tool to investigate aircraft accidents is limited. It would be possible to develop this but as with most things it comes down to cost.

The call to make it mandatory for all aircraft to carry some kind of real-time black box constantly sending data and the aircraft's location back to base only really came about after the disappearance of MH370 in March. This was a freak "accident". The reason I use inverted commas is because all the evidence in that case points to a deliberate act of sabotage by one of the two pilots. Somebody on that aircraft didn't want it to be found and they switched off the primary ACARS system. Most aviation accidents occur in circumstances where it's possible to quickly retrieve both the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage, so the airlines will argue that the expense is not really worth it for such rare circumstances. However, I do believe they will be forced by the regulatory bodies before too long to have some kind of real-time location reporting.

With regards to this Air Asia accident. The investigators will find the wreckage fairly soon and I suspect they'll have the full data available to them from both black boxes. The water in that area is relatively shallow (that's why MH370 is currently at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and not where it did a u-turn just off the coast of Vietnam; whoever did it didn't want the wreckage found).

It's far too early to determine what caused the Air Asia accident. However, what I will say is that it is known to have disappeared near to some severe thunderstorms. They shouldn't necessarily bring down an aircraft, BUT, if the pilots do not respond correctly to the problems they can present, then the situation can very quickly get out of control. The pitot tubes on an aircraft are devices which use air pressure to calculate airspeed and then present it to the pilots. If this device freezes up (a risk near thunderstorms) then it can give erroneous data to the cockpit, such as making the pilots think the aircraft is flying faster than it really is. It's believed the Air Asia had a ground speed of 353 knots just before it disappeared from radar screens, which is a very low speed for the forecasted wind in that area and could indicate the aircraft was near to a stall.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Here's my location....

 

[Human]

Well Naas, as it happens I'm currently sat on Boeing 777-300ER, three hours into a nine hour flight from London to Miami, typing away on my laptop with a perfectly good internet connection. I'm in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. So with regards to real-time data on the aircraft being transferred to a ground station; it's certainly possible, and indeed does happen in a more primitive way with some airlines. That system is called ACARS (Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System). It's more like an SMS messaging service transmitting real-time data about the aircraft back to base. But it's use as a tool to investigate aircraft accidents is limited. It would be possible to develop this but as with most things it comes down to cost.

The call to make it mandatory for all aircraft to carry some kind of real-time black box constantly sending data and the aircraft's location back to base only really came about after the disappearance of MH370 in March. This was a freak "accident". The reason I use inverted commas is because all the evidence in that case points to a deliberate act of sabotage by one of the two pilots. Somebody on that aircraft didn't want it to be found and they switched off the primary ACARS system. Most aviation accidents occur in circumstances where it's possible to quickly retrieve both the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage, so the airlines will argue that the expense is not really worth it for such rare circumstances. However, I do believe they will be forced by the regulatory bodies before too long to have some kind of real-time location reporting.

With regards to this Air Asia accident. The investigators will find the wreckage fairly soon and I suspect they'll have the full data available to them from both black boxes. The water in that area is relatively shallow (that's why MH370 is currently at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and not where it did a u-turn just off the coast of Vietnam; whoever did it didn't want the wreckage found).

It's far too early to determine what caused the Air Asia accident. However, what I will say is that it is known to have disappeared near to some severe thunderstorms. They shouldn't necessarily bring down an aircraft, BUT, if the pilots do not respond correctly to the problems they can present, then the situation can very quickly get out of control. The pitot tubes on an aircraft are devices which use air pressure to calculate airspeed and then present it to the pilots. If this device freezes up (a risk near thunderstorms) then it can give erroneous data to the cockpit, such as making the pilots think the aircraft is flying faster than it really is. It's believed the Air Asia had a ground speed of 353 knots just before it disappeared from radar screens, which is a very low speed for the forecasted wind in that area and could indicate the aircraft was near to a stall.

Thank you very much Betty. Very insightful and interesting read. I hope for the sake of the victims families of flight QZ8501 they find the wreckage and data recorders soon. Enjoy your flight and may you reach Miami safe and in good health. BTW, holidaying in Miami!?

 

[Human]

Here's my location....

1st or business class

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Thank you very much Betty. Very insightful and interesting read. I hope for the sake of the victims families of flight QZ8501 they find the wreckage and data recorders soon. Enjoy your flight and may you reach Miami safe and in good health. BTW, holidaying in Miami!?

Thanks Naas. Fingers crossed! Not holidaying in Miami unfortunately. Have a connecting flight to Texas. Just approaching Newfoundland, Canada.

1st or business class

First Class.

 

[Human]

Thanks Naas. Fingers crossed! Just approaching Newfoundland, Canada.



First Class.

Enjoy! Nogmaals hartlike dank en voorspoedige nuwe jaar

 

[Tarek]

Arrive safe man.

 

[Monster]

Unfortunately the crash was confirmed and the 3 bodies were recovered.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...rash-in-java-sea/story-fnizu68q-1227170415831


This just makes the complete disappearance of the M370 even more mysterious.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

This just makes the complete disappearance of the M370 even more mysterious.

With respect Derek, there is nothing in the crash of the Air Asia A320 which makes the disappearance of MH370 any more mysterious. If MH370 had hit the water in the same area as the Air Asia flight, the wreckage will have likely have been found in the same time frame. But it didn't, and the reason it didn't is because whoever sabotaged MH370 didn't want the wreckage to be found.

The Java Sea is not only very shallow (average depth of 46 metres, with many parts less than 30 metres), it is also very flat. The Southern Indian Ocean where the MH370 is believed to have hit the water, is not only very deep with some parts reaching 6,000 metres, but is extremely rugged. When the authorities began searching that part of the Ocean, they didn't have any underwater maps to go on. They were mapping some parts for the first time.

What is known about MH370 is that up until about 40 minutes into the flight, everything appeared perfectly normal. The pilots were handed from Malaysian air traffic control to Vietnam air traffic control, and one of the pilots responded with "goodnight". Over the next two minutes however, the transponder was switched off (a device on board the aircraft which enables it to be identified by radar) and they never checked in with Vietnam air traffic control. This has all the hallmarks of a deliberate act. The timing was perfect, in between two ATC centres thus increasing the chances it would go unnoticed for as long as possible. Also, this is a time when the workload on the flight deck is reduced significantly which means one of the pilots may have been left alone on the flight deck whilst the other popped out to the toilet. It would have been very easy for the remaining pilot, in an act of suicide, to have put the aircraft into a dive at this point, but knowing the seabed was very shallow they may not have wanted the wreckage to have been found. There have been several high profile accidents over the years which have been attributed to pilot suicide, so as horrible as it sounds, it's not unprecedented:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozambique_Airlines_Flight_470

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Maroc_Flight_630

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_350

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185

After MH370 disappeared from civilian radar, it was picked up on military primary radar crossing the Malay Peninsula heading in the direction of the Indian Ocean.

Mechanical failure could have been a theory, but data retrieved by Immarsat confirmed that he engines continued to function for around another seven hours after the flight disappeared, and continued to make attempts to log on to a satellite link every hour, the last one being at 0811. Using this data they were able to narrow the probably path of the aircraft to one of two arcs, the Southern one being most likely.

 

[KiwiRob]

Betty what do you think happened to MH370?

 

[Beemer B773ER]

So sad to read about the heartache of the family and friends waiting for any news. At least the process to closure can now begin for them.

 

[Sunny]

...but data retrieved by Immarsat confirmed that he engines continued to function for around another seven hours after the flight disappeared, and continued to make attempts to log on to a satellite link every hour, the last one being at 0811. Using this data they were able to narrow the probably path of the aircraft to one of two arcs, the Southern one being most likely.

What I don't get is, if the aircraft already connects/uploads via a satellite link, why doesn't that info include the GPS coordinates of the aircraft at that time. Seems like a simple, logical and easy enough thing to do. Of course, the next logical thing being to make the updates more frequent than 1 hour.

 

[Betty Swollocks]

What I don't get is, if the aircraft already connects/uploads via a satellite link, why doesn't that info include the GPS coordinates of the aircraft at that time. Seems like a simple, logical and easy enough thing to do. Of course, the next logical thing being to make the updates more frequent than 1 hour.

From what I understand, the engines were sending out "pings" every hour by default, but there was no actual data being transmitted regarding the performance of the engines because Malaysia Airlines hadn't paid for the full service.

However, I've just found this article from May of this year which says that the satellite tracking company, Inmarsat, announced that they would offer the BASIC global tracking service for free to all airlines, and it will provide position information every 15 minutes. Beyond that it will also offer a system which sends back the data from both black boxes of any aircraft which deviates off course.

http://phys.org/news/2014-05-inmarsat-global-airline-tracking-mh370.html

 

[Betty Swollocks]

Betty what do you think happened to MH370?

All the evidence points overwhelmingly to deliberate action by one of the two pilots in a case of suicide/murder. The aircraft did a u-turn at a very specific point, the transponder was switched off so as not to be detected by air traffic control, and the aircraft was then flown erratically before heading out towards the Indian Ocean, and likely continued to fly on autopilot until fuel starvation. Whether the passengers were alive throughout the whole flight we'll probably never know, but Malaysian military radar supposedly tracked the aircraft climbing to 45,000ft, way above the certified maximum altitude for the aircraft, presumably in an attempt by the pilot to depressurise the aircraft and render the passengers unconscious, and then descending as low as 12,000ft, presumably to evade radar.

Mechanical failure does not make sense because the aircraft would likely not fly for several hours if it was.

Being shot down "by the Americans" is the stuff of fantasy.

There was one suggestion that terrorists had hijacked the aircraft and had been holding the passengers to ransom until the Malaysian government released several political prisoners. When the government refused to agree to this, the terrorists crashed the plane into the sea. However, had this been the case then the remaining members of the terrorist group would surely make it public that the government had refused to negotiate, but there has been nothing.

The Malaysian government were accused of hiding information in the immediate aftermath of the disappearance, which aroused suspicion, but this was due to the sensitive nature of revealing to Malaysia's neighbours their radar capabilities.Thailand and Indonesia have also been very guarded with what they saw on their radars for the same reason.

 

[martinbo]

@Betty Swollocks - just magnificent quality of posting and informative level of detail.

 

[Human]

@Betty Swollocks - just magnificent quality of posting and informative level of detail.

@Betty Swollocks

One can read if a person has the passion, knowledge and expertise for his job/career. With Betty it's as clear as a blip or ping on a radar